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Riddick19

2017 Draft Picks and Drafting Perogative???

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So another draft is in the books.... I watched the recent group of prospects play in the scrimmage game the other day. I for one was more impressed with Formenton than I was Shane Bowers. Like most I'm hoping Bowers pans out ala White & Chabot, but he seemed nervous in this game and scared to make a mistake. He also clearly has a few years needed to add strength as he was definitely overmatched in the corners. On the other hand, prospects like Chabot, White, Jaros, Paul, and a few others looked impressive.

So.... with only 4 picks in this somewhat weak draft, wondering what other people's consensus is on this group of prospects? What are your opinions on the job the team's scouting staff has done? I for one believe we have struggled for the most part at the top end of the draft, where we are STARTING to feel the effects of fizzling prospects such as Puempel, Zibanejad, Lazar, and Ceci. Now in some cases Zibanejad and Ceci yes they are players but they never became the impact players the team thought they were acquiring. Ceci could still round out, but he has had a difficult time finding his offense in the NHL and that was the primary reason for drafting him in the first place.

On the other hand they have also unearthed players in the middle rounds like Stone, Hoffman, Claessen, Dzingel, Smith, Boro, etc.... which earns this group of scouts a feather in the cap. Anyways as always looking forward to hearing your views on the topic.

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Riddick,

Did you have  a chance to witness Chalpik ? I heard Dorion was impressed with his development. I truly liked his game when he played the juniors. 

Off topic: Do we still have any rights over Da Costa and Wickstrand.

I will give Da Costa an opportunity over here. 

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To he fair formenton was an overage draft pick so he should look a little stronger than Bowers. 

Bowers is your prototypical late first round pick. Good skills but no where near ready to play in the nhl maturity and physically wise 

Bowers is also the type of player that gets other gm's exciting when trading with the sens. He is a 1st round pick, he has the skill set, he is no where near his potential. With the core in place I can see quite a few of these prospects moving in trades for the over the hump pieces. Especially the next couple years 

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23 hours ago, luckan20 said:

Riddick,

Did you have  a chance to witness Chalpik ? I heard Dorion was impressed with his development. I truly liked his game when he played the juniors. 

Off topic: Do we still have any rights over Da Costa and Wickstrand.

I will give Da Costa an opportunity over here. 

LUCKAN.... Yeah watched Chlapik at the intrasquad game, and Chlapik has really improved his skating. not just his speed, but his agility as well as his first couple of steps. This past year of junior really did him well. Would say he was in the top 5-8 players in the QMJHL last year in the 2nd half. He reminds a lot of Antoine Vermette in a lot of ways.

23SENS.... Could be right, the intrasquad game was my first view of Bowers, and definitely willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Hoping he pans out and because I don't know much about him so will reserve my opinion on him for later. I will say he definitely didn't look out of place, just didn't stand out. We have a good cachet of prospects, just none of them seem to be getting recognized. Gabe Gagne has to pick it up or he'll be let go at the end of the season.

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Formenton isn't a overage draft pick, he's a Sept 1999 birthday, meaning he's still only 17 and was one of the youngest players in the draft. I'm just as excited about him as I am with Bowers- always good to take London Knight players, and he had a nice 1st half of the year as an OHL rookie. He has plenty of speed and plays with a bit of an edge- doesn't shy away from the dirty areas. London added some big names to their lineup so he was caught up in the depth later in the year, but I expect a big year from him this season. 

I'm excited with this team's young prospects and don't feel they've drafted as poorly as you seem to, Riddick. Ceci and Zibanejad are as good as you can realistically expect given their draft position. Karlsson at 15th overall is amazing but that's once in a lifetime. Zib and Ceci went right where they should have in their drafts- solid picks. 

I think this team has very solid prospect pool right now. 

White and Chabot are high end prospects, should be NHL players very soon. 

Brown has a lot of growing to do but I support this pick because of the upside of a huge playmaking center who's good on the PP and has a heavy shot

There are 3 young, big, physical d-men that are highly thought of in the organization- Englund, Jaros and Harpur

There are a fair share of skilled forwards with top 6 upside- Chlapik, Perron, Formenton

A few potentially solid two-way forwards- Paul and Bowers

And the one goalie I'm high on is Hogberg; this will be a big year for him

Then you have a few other names worth a mention- Gagne, Batherson, Lajoie.  

It's a bit of a guessing game at this point as I don't think any of us watch all these guys extensively, but Ottawa seems to have a nice mix of high quality and quantity. 

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Yep my mistake it was batherson that is the overage pick 

But I agree the prospect cupboard is full. Time to turn some of that stockpile into high end nhl players 

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Guys I don't follow juniors and most of you know about it.

On the goalie front, Randy Lee mentioned Danny Taylor will be the main guy inn NHL, while Hogberg and Driedger will have to battle to stay in Belleville. I drove by the stadium on Sunday and in fact checked the arena. It is awesome.

On to Logan Brown, I wasn't pleased with his show during Memorial Cup. IMO, he was not that great. I found him little weak in his skating. May be he was hurt or was scared to make mistakes. However, I hear many of you talk high about him, so I believe he will be a player to watch in the future.

According Randy Lee, Nick Paul is confident that he will stay in NHL. Good news if he can fight out and stay up here. If he plays well, then Thomson signing or Burrows deal might become expensive.

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BOONIE.... I said they have drafted poorly at the top of the draft over the past 5-7 years and will stick with that claim. Zibanejad was touted as a #1 center by this very same management group minus Tim Murray. I don't believe he has or ever will amount to that. When you factor in Mark Scheifele was drafted with the very next pick, and Dougie Hamilton a few picks after that. Just saying our top picks haven't panned out to be the type of impact players they were projected to be. I never said Ceci was a horrible pick, I've said we didn't develop him properly. Most will tell you on this site I've been one of Ceci's biggest supporters. But he has not translated to becoming the big smooth puck-moving defenseman he was projected to be. That wasn't so much a poor selection as it was poor development. In that though I will say there was an issue with necessity as we needed the skills he provided. But those skills seem to be drying up and he has more or less peaked in his development.

Puempel, Noesen, & Lazar over the past few years factor in we traded a 1st rounder in between states we have not done very well in the early rounds. Again some of that might be development related, but we need to start hitting more than we have. Had we not drafted Lazar and went with Anthony Mantha.... picked Scheifele as opposed to Zibanejad we're in much better shape. I agree it's a crapshoot but notice how teams like Washington hardly seem to miss? Burakovsky (23rd) Filip Forsberg (11th), Tom Wilson (16th), Kuznetsov (26th), Marcus Johansson (26th).... Jacob Vrana will likely make the team this season? We need to start hitting like that. Those selections will make the Stone and Hoffman-type picks even more valuable.

23SENS23.... Problem with the cupboard especially in terms of our defense, they are physical guys, not the speedy puck-moving players that teams are putting an emphasis on. They are strong talents not debating that, but they aren't sought after like the puck-moving guys are. Hopefully Hogberg pans out as I have heard a lot of good things about him and watched a little bit of his game. Definitely the best goalie prospect in the system but we're shallow in that regard. I believe Perron, Paul, Chlapik, Jaros, and Harpur will really get noticed this year. Harpur especially on defense. I see a lot of tools with him and I believe he has put them together, he just needs the reps to acquit them at a higher pace. I know he struggled somewhat in the playoffs in certain games but the pace was too fast to be throwing him in like that. If he stays with the big club this season we're going to see a very effective defenseman.

LUCKAN.... Trust me I've seen enough of Logan Brown to know this kid is the real deal. His skating is actually a strength, he can really move and his hands and brain move just as fast as his feet and that makes all the difference. What he does need to work on is his first two steps at the Pro level. His top speed is NHL worthy and his strength is there too as he is virtually impossible to knock off the puck. He's a keeper for sure, but might take 2 years before we see him full time with the big club.

Only prospect I believe is showing signs of flaming out is Gabriel Gagne.... Kid has all the tools size, speed, wicked wrist shot, but his compete level is way down there, and his IQ is average at best. Plus he needs a better conditioning regiment as he is too easily intimidated and out muscled for such a big kid.

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Riddick sure the defense might not be where trades can be made but that's not the worst. Because the sens have the puck movers in Chabot and karlsson. They just need a bunch of prospects to try and find a methot replacement And better bottom pairing guys. So I'm not really talking about moving d prospects 

I am talking about moving Bowers, formenton, batherson, ahl, Perron those types that have potential but probably won't get the chance in Ottawa with the forwards the sens have 

But trading ceci, 1st and one of them would get a good player back 

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14 minutes ago, 23sens23 said:

Riddick sure the defense might not be where trades can be made but that's not the worst. Because the sens have the puck movers in Chabot and karlsson. They just need a bunch of prospects to try and find a methot replacement And better bottom pairing guys. So I'm not really talking about moving d prospects 

I am talking about moving Bowers, formenton, batherson, ahl, Perron those types that have potential but probably won't get the chance in Ottawa with the forwards the sens have 

But trading ceci, 1st and one of them would get a good player back 

Ahh okay.... yeah wish we were deeper defensively with puck-movers. Wikstrand would've been a nice piece to have in the arsenal. I like the prospects we have, just have to develop them properly. Hoping Bowers pans out and can eventually play the wing because that's likely where his future lies. Next year's draft is supposed to very good. What would be ideal is for a guy like Wideman to break out. Have one of the prospects take his spot and sell him high.... 

Anyways still early in the offseason hopefully Dorion has something up his sleeve. I don't see him sitting on this much cap space the whole offseason.

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On 7/4/2017 at 2:30 PM, Riddick19 said:

BOONIE.... I said they have drafted poorly at the top of the draft over the past 5-7 years and will stick with that claim. Zibanejad was touted as a #1 center by this very same management group minus Tim Murray. I don't believe he has or ever will amount to that. When you factor in Mark Scheifele was drafted with the very next pick, and Dougie Hamilton a few picks after that. Just saying our top picks haven't panned out to be the type of impact players they were projected to be. I never said Ceci was a horrible pick, I've said we didn't develop him properly. Most will tell you on this site I've been one of Ceci's biggest supporters. But he has not translated to becoming the big smooth puck-moving defenseman he was projected to be. That wasn't so much a poor selection as it was poor development. In that though I will say there was an issue with necessity as we needed the skills he provided. But those skills seem to be drying up and he has more or less peaked in his development.

Puempel, Noesen, & Lazar over the past few years factor in we traded a 1st rounder in between states we have not done very well in the early rounds. Again some of that might be development related, but we need to start hitting more than we have. Had we not drafted Lazar and went with Anthony Mantha.... picked Scheifele as opposed to Zibanejad we're in much better shape. I agree it's a crapshoot but notice how teams like Washington hardly seem to miss? Burakovsky (23rd) Filip Forsberg (11th), Tom Wilson (16th), Kuznetsov (26th), Marcus Johansson (26th).... Jacob Vrana will likely make the team this season? We need to start hitting like that. Those selections will make the Stone and Hoffman-type picks even more valuable.

Only prospect I believe is showing signs of flaming out is Gabriel Gagne.... Kid has all the tools size, speed, wicked wrist shot, but his compete level is way down there, and his IQ is average at best. Plus he needs a better conditioning regiment as he is too easily intimidated and out muscled for such a big kid.

You mentioned Wilson being a good pick while suggesting Ceci hasn't been what you would've hoped for out of a high pick. They were selected in the same draft, 15th and 16th overall. Every team in this league would take Ceci over Wilson right now. Wilson is a energy 4th liner would can give you 12 minutes/game, and very little production. Ceci has disappointed some Sens fans, but he's a top 4 d-man who just played over 23 mins per game last year, which puts him around the top 30 among skaters league wide. Those are hard minutes against the other team's top players, too. And their production is pretty well the same [in their careers, Ceci actually has more points in less games]. Just can't seen how you can use Ceci as part of your example for Ottawa's poor drafting while in the same breath mention Wilson as an example of Washington's good drafting. Washington hasn't hit on all their picks, either, you've neglected to mention the misses. 

The reality is, you can go through every team's drafts and find picks that they regret, or players that they should have chosen. Ceci at 15th overall is very solid value. Zibanejad at 6th in that particular draft was completely reasonable, not a lot of guys become bonafide # 1 centers [RNH went #1 in that draft and look at him now] so for him to end up a as a solid #2 center is a good pick. A few of the others you mentioned were misses, but there are a variety of factors- Injuries for Noesen [plus we traded him while he had value], development for Lazar [although he likely never would've been a very good offensive player with his lack of hockey IQ]. 

It's far too early to judge our last 3-4 drafts so whatever we say about them right now is pretty much useless. Chabot and White have the potential to be very good players which will help ruin your argument, but that potential hasn't been hit yet, so we'll have to wait and see. So really, you're looking at the span of about 3 drafts [2011-13]. Not a large sample size, I prefer to see how these next few years play out before condemning Dorion and company. 

I can see where you're coming from in the sense that we seem to draft better in the later rounds, but I don't view as many of our earlier picks as negatively as you. You can always play the what-if game and suggest that Ottawa should've taken Scheifele or Mantha, but like I mentioned earlier, every team can do that. This team has a solid prospect pool in both quantity and quality so I'm content with how they've drafted for the most part. 

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10 hours ago, Boonie said:

You mentioned Wilson being a good pick while suggesting Ceci hasn't been what you would've hoped for out of a high pick. They were selected in the same draft, 15th and 16th overall. Every team in this league would take Ceci over Wilson right now. Wilson is a energy 4th liner would can give you 12 minutes/game, and very little production. Ceci has disappointed some Sens fans, but he's a top 4 d-man who just played over 23 mins per game last year, which puts him around the top 30 among skaters league wide. Those are hard minutes against the other team's top players, too. And their production is pretty well the same [in their careers, Ceci actually has more points in less games]. Just can't seen how you can use Ceci as part of your example for Ottawa's poor drafting while in the same breath mention Wilson as an example of Washington's good drafting. Washington hasn't hit on all their picks, either, you've neglected to mention the misses. 

The reality is, you can go through every team's drafts and find picks that they regret, or players that they should have chosen. Ceci at 15th overall is very solid value. Zibanejad at 6th in that particular draft was completely reasonable, not a lot of guys become bonafide # 1 centers [RNH went #1 in that draft and look at him now] so for him to end up a as a solid #2 center is a good pick. A few of the others you mentioned were misses, but there are a variety of factors- Injuries for Noesen [plus we traded him while he had value], development for Lazar [although he likely never would've been a very good offensive player with his lack of hockey IQ]. 

It's far too early to judge our last 3-4 drafts so whatever we say about them right now is pretty much useless. Chabot and White have the potential to be very good players which will help ruin your argument, but that potential hasn't been hit yet, so we'll have to wait and see. So really, you're looking at the span of about 3 drafts [2011-13]. Not a large sample size, I prefer to see how these next few years play out before condemning Dorion and company. 

I can see where you're coming from in the sense that we seem to draft better in the later rounds, but I don't view as many of our earlier picks as negatively as you. You can always play the what-if game and suggest that Ottawa should've taken Scheifele or Mantha, but like I mentioned earlier, every team can do that. This team has a solid prospect pool in both quantity and quality so I'm content with how they've drafted for the most part. 

BOONIE..... You're completely missing the point. Wilson was drafted and became exactly what he was projected to be. On a different team with more minutes his production would be better and he has made more of a difference to the Caps than any of Noesen, Puempel or Lazar has for us. Difference was we NEEDED to drafted a puck moving defenseman and we did because we lacked that component. I'm not pooling the blame on the draft picks, I'm pooling it on the development side. Most will tell you I've been a huge Ceci supported since the time he was drafted. The Cody Ceci that we watched last season was not what was hoped for. His offense now is compoletely non-existent. His corsi numbers have been pounded through the floor that's how bad he's been. almost 57% of the time he is on the ice he spends in his own zone, the numbers are even worse in terms of the amount of shots he's on for against compared to the shots he's on, for.

The whole Zibanejad thing he was a late riser and though he wasn't a horrible pick, he wasn't a great one either. Yes lets have a look at that 2012 draft. Had Ceci become what was expected there's no qualms. But look who else went in that draft later than Ceci and look at those teams those players are from? Thomas Hertl at 17th... from San Jose... when was the last time they made the Cup Finals? Oh yes 2 years ago.....Teuvo Teravainen 18th... a little smaller but CHICAGO turned him into a great contributor, oh and he helped them win a Stanley Cup.... Vasilevskiy.... a goaltender in the first round, something Ottawa never does.... TAMPA BAY... allows them to move out a guy like Ben Bishop.... Olli Maatta 22ND..... Again a key piece in the Penguins winning the Stanley Cup. In terms of Vasilevskiy and Teravainen? proves if you want to WIN in this league you have to take a shot on a guy that might not be as big as you like, or plays a position you want to use a 1st rounder on, you have to take a chance. Shane Bowers by their own admission was a "safe" pick. No one wants to see safe, yes he might play for you someday.... that can't be the best expecations of you top pick. Those are the expectations that should be placed on your bottom picks like the Jaros, Englunds, Perrons, Bathersons.... No one is complaining about the picks these guys make in the bottom rounds they are the ONLY reason we are competitive. You can raise your nose to a talent like Tarasenko because he's Russian at 17th overall. Yes we end up with Turris that's not the point, at the draft they raised their nose to a franchise-type talent in Tarasenko because he's Russian and it's that mindset that is crippling the franchise.

Lastly Boonie, I'm not down completely on the drafting of this team, in fact moreso I think it's the gameplan/development template that is flawed. I don't like how we always seem to draft for a safe player every year in the top selection. I want to see some risk, like back in the days we drafted players like Hossa, Havlat, Volchenkov, Meszaros, etc late in the early rounds. I for one hope Bowers exceeds his "safe mantra" because outside of White who isn't projected to be a huge point guy and Logan Brown, we don't have really any Bluechip forward prospects. Chlapik, Perron, Fermenton might be good players but they aren't considered blue chippers up front. Safe wasn't what this team needed not with the vanilla offense we have. Would like to see this group take a chance here or there even if they aren't North American. You can't handicap yourself because of a player's nationality. Not when you're a team like us. We're never going to attract top end players via UFA....so you have to draft them. You don't draft those players by playing it safe. example; Evgeny Kuznetsov, Burakovsky, Teravainen, Pastrnak, etc. All were players picked later in the draft, that were at the time riskier picks or even a guy like Ho-Sang... who had attitude issues, but has a boatload of talent. You have to hope you can fix some of that and harness the talent. The Sens have enough "SAFE" talent on the roster, they need to start looking at hitting a home run here and there. This is the issue I have not that they have done a horrible job, but that they haven't even tried to land a premiere talent because they operate scared to death that they might not pan out. Well Puempel, Noesen, & Lazar are all NA players and they for all intents and purposes missed. So we need to lay oiff the whole North American first preference, if there is a more dynamic European player available. Hey if you can find a Clayton Keller over a European damn go for it. But to take a Rundblad in trade because a Russian Tarasenko is the best talent at your draft position is a reason we don't have a franchise-type forward.

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Great posts guys.

IMO, Zibanejad went at 6, but he was actually late in the order. We thought he will be the guy. For me he was more of a winger than center.

On Tarasenko, yes it was a bad move, but at the time of draft Rundbald was tearing the SEL. We could have developed him as Karlsson 3.0, (not 2.0), but the Swede didn't want to play in AHL. Now he is looking for NHL job. However, we used him to land a top line center. Therefore, it is a win/win situation.

On to Cody Ceci, he scored 10 goals playing under Cameron in 2015/16 season. However, he was below average last season. This could be change in guard in coaching, approach to the game by Sens drastically changed and also he was given the shut down duty to play along the slowest D man in Sens uniform. Lot of things happened which is why it exposed him and Dion against top end players.

There were night he played more minutes than any other skater, which shows Boucher trusted him. I will not throw him under the bus. I still like Cody Ceci and with a puck moving D man beside it will be awesome to watch. I am not sold on throwing Dion with Ceci. I will prefer Claesson with Ceci.

 

Boonie, Wilson was drafted for a reason. Capitals were stacked up with skilled guys but wanted to make their grinders younger. They had way too many older guys in the bottom 6. Wilson has been a good player for Capitals. He brings the much needed energy to a team which has got too many Russians. This the first time I saw Kuznetsov brought his "A" game in the post season. I think some of guys were badly developed under Bryan Murray regime. He was too loyal to some of his veteran players and the atmosphere in dressing room was not the same as last year. Our past coaches, with the exception of MacLean, all sucked in handling the team. With the departure of Alfie, & Spezza, the team took wrong turn. Even prior to Alfie & Spezza, our team lacked good coaching. We also had terrible goal tending before Anderson & Bishop. There were lots of poor decisions by Bryan Murray in hiring coaches, coupled with Eugene Melnyk not injecting dollars and bad trades/contracts, which all led to stagnation in Sens progress. 

I don't think Puempel & Noeson were home  run picks. We could have used those picks to stack up with quality prospects or players.  

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LUCKAN... Rundblad turned out to be a decent defenseman and even won a cup with Chicago. Some of it is the development and I believe it has a part in this as well. But in terms of drafting I don't like the philosophy of ignoring talent because of their birth place. We're not a team laden with enough talent to do that. Or totally ignore positions (goaltender) simply because you refuse to pick them in the first round. Since Murray took over, we draft safe players. Players they are more certain to play albeit maybe not becoming starts instead of players with a little more upside but are players that could miss as well. This is where the faith in the development guys (Alfy before he left, Sean Donovan) come in. You draft the talent and put your faith in those guys to mould it into what you need it to. Imagine had we not missed on Lazar, Cowen, & Puempel? Most of our top end players are players we had to bring in from other teams because we haven't done a good enough job of drafting and developing our own top shelf guys. Hoffman and Stone are great but we picked them in the rounds where we needed a little more luck, but hit because they did see potential. Guys like Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Puempel, Cowen, Lazar were guys this franchise had big plans for and that is a lot of top picks out the door. Ryan hasn't panned out, and remember we also gave them a top 10 pick. It was a move made because we haven't developed top end talent.

Boonie, is correct in that it's not that we have been horrible at the draft and I never said we were. But I do believe the combination of safe picks, and maybe having a guy like Sean Donovan looking after the talent moulding might not be a good mix in finding our future top end players. The proof is in the pudding... Brassard, Turris, Ryan, & MacArthur are all out of org players brought in out of necessity because of our inability to stack our top 2 lines with homegrown talent, and as I said Stone nor Hoffman were top picks. 

I agree the coaching has played a big role in our missing the playoffs absolutely no argument there in fact Bryan Murray was a huge problem and I don't believe it's a coincidence that we made the playoffs with roughly the same personnel as soon as Murray was removed as GM as I believe it became a bit of a country club atmosphere. The coaching issue has been addressed no qualms about that, the system isn't very exciting, but with more talented players the goals will come. In order for that we need more flash and less safe. We need to start hitting home runs with our top picks. As Boonie said and I know he's new to this board he'll read I said a while back right when we picked Chabot we drafted a franchise-caliber defenseman. White is also a top end guy and I'm hoping both DEVELOP into what they should become. I was never a fan of Lazar I said from the day we drafted him that I never believed he'd be an NHL player. Even White is what you'd call a safe pick, but I believe he developed his offensive game further than the team even thought he could. I think our recent picks (Chabot, & White) are a good start. Bowers I hope pans out, and I hope people aren't thinking I'm hoping against our prospects because I'm not. I'm a big Ceci fan but I'm a Senators fan first. Ceci has taken a big step back in my opinion and I don't believe he's going to hit the level of play that was expected of him, and I believe he'll be passed by Chabot as early as this year.

But moving forward, we HAVE TO start producing top end players from our top picks. Every team that wins this is how they do it. We're not the exception I know we're not doing things well enough to be think we can. Brown, White, & Chabot are awesome starts I agree totally, but they have to develop now into those amazing potential talents. I'm not sure Sean Donovan is the guy for that as I never saw him as having all that much talent. I mean he's not the guy I would want showing my top prospects how they can better shoot the puck, or stick handle.... you know? Anyways I think this past draft for the volume of picks we had I believe we did alright.

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Let's not pretend like it was the sens only passing on tarasenko there is 15 teams ahead of the blues at that pick that are kicking themselves for not taking a chance on him 

And let's face it the window to win is the next 2 years. (A whole different dicsussion) so I don't hate the picks recently of solid forsure nhl players that could exceed expectations if they are used to bring in the pieces to win now 

Trade ahl, Perron, Bowers, formenton etc for a piece to help them now

It will drive sens fans (one of the worst fan bases in the nhl) nuts but the goal is to win a cup and karlsson stone turris on half price deals means mortgage the future to win a cup now then rebuild 

 

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23SENS23.... It's not that Ottawa passed up Tarasenko at 17. Had Tarasenko been there at 200 they likely pass on him. Doesn't matter if 199 other teams did the same thing it's the reasons they passed him over. Had Tarsenko been named John Jones from Missisauga our team looks a whole lot different. It isn't about what other teams do or don't do, this fan base expects a good team and wants to watch star talent. It's why we have such a difficult time finding star players. It's not that they aren't available it's that they draft more on safety that a player will play than risking a little less certainty for a guy who could be a true superstar. Ottawa needs to get away from that prerogative.

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎07 at 7:39 AM, Riddick19 said:

BOONIE..... You're completely missing the point. Wilson was drafted and became exactly what he was projected to be. On a different team with more minutes his production would be better and he has made more of a difference to the Caps than any of Noesen, Puempel or Lazar has for us. Difference was we NEEDED to drafted a puck moving defenseman and we did because we lacked that component. I'm not pooling the blame on the draft picks, I'm pooling it on the development side. Most will tell you I've been a huge Ceci supported since the time he was drafted. The Cody Ceci that we watched last season was not what was hoped for. His offense now is compoletely non-existent. His corsi numbers have been pounded through the floor that's how bad he's been. almost 57% of the time he is on the ice he spends in his own zone, the numbers are even worse in terms of the amount of shots he's on for against compared to the shots he's on, for.

The whole Zibanejad thing he was a late riser and though he wasn't a horrible pick, he wasn't a great one either. Yes lets have a look at that 2012 draft. Had Ceci become what was expected there's no qualms. But look who else went in that draft later than Ceci and look at those teams those players are from? Thomas Hertl at 17th... from San Jose... when was the last time they made the Cup Finals? Oh yes 2 years ago.....Teuvo Teravainen 18th... a little smaller but CHICAGO turned him into a great contributor, oh and he helped them win a Stanley Cup.... Vasilevskiy.... a goaltender in the first round, something Ottawa never does.... TAMPA BAY... allows them to move out a guy like Ben Bishop.... Olli Maatta 22ND..... Again a key piece in the Penguins winning the Stanley Cup. In terms of Vasilevskiy and Teravainen? proves if you want to WIN in this league you have to take a shot on a guy that might not be as big as you like, or plays a position you want to use a 1st rounder on, you have to take a chance. Shane Bowers by their own admission was a "safe" pick. No one wants to see safe, yes he might play for you someday.... that can't be the best expecations of you top pick. Those are the expectations that should be placed on your bottom picks like the Jaros, Englunds, Perrons, Bathersons.... No one is complaining about the picks these guys make in the bottom rounds they are the ONLY reason we are competitive. You can raise your nose to a talent like Tarasenko because he's Russian at 17th overall. Yes we end up with Turris that's not the point, at the draft they raised their nose to a franchise-type talent in Tarasenko because he's Russian and it's that mindset that is crippling the franchise.

 

 

I find it silly that because Wilson fits as a 4th liner on Washington, that makes him a better pick than Ceci as a 2nd pairing d-man on Ottawa. They give you the same type of production despite one being a defenseman, and Ceci is tasked with playing more minutes than all but 25-30 players in the league, while playing against top competition. I understand and agree that Ceci has struggled at times- he lacks intelligence in my opinion, but he is a far better player than Wilson. If we had drafted Wilson, you would be complaining about taking a safe player- he's a 4th liner, nothing more. It's just inconsistency from you.

Your next few points are silly. Because SJ made the finals with Hertl on their team, and Chicago won with Teravainen and Maatta with the Pens, that makes them great picks? C'mon. Those guys aren't star players, and none of them offer far more value than Ceci. Ottawa was 1 goal away from making it to the finals with Ceci as their # 2 minute man. But because Kunitz scored a double OT flubbed shot goal, that means that Ceci is a worse pick than those other guys? No. Pens fans constantly complain about Maatta who has seen his share of struggles. Hertl has been inconsistent and injury proned, and in that Cup run was just their 9th leading scorer, and Teravainen didn't become the type of player Chicago had anticipated and they ended up trading him away. As for Vasilevsky, he still has to prove himself in this league as a go-to #1. I believe he has what it takes, but taking a goalie in the 1st round isn't some genius move as you make it sound. Campbell, Chet Pickard, McCollum, and Visentin are just a few of the more recent 1st round goalie busts.

I suggest giving Bowers a chance. He has yet to even start his college career. White was considered a safe pick and is now an exciting, top end prospect. Just a year ago, we took the opposite of a safe pick in Logan Brown. I think the Lazar pick and subsequent struggles have left this fan base scared [mixed in with the fact that this fan base has an inferiority complex sitting between Montreal and Toronto, and generally chooses to be negative]. Zib wasn't a safe pick, nor was Chabot, or Karlsson. 

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18 hours ago, Boonie said:

I find it silly that because Wilson fits as a 4th liner on Washington, that makes him a better pick than Ceci as a 2nd pairing d-man on Ottawa. They give you the same type of production despite one being a defenseman, and Ceci is tasked with playing more minutes than all but 25-30 players in the league, while playing against top competition. I understand and agree that Ceci has struggled at times- he lacks intelligence in my opinion, but he is a far better player than Wilson. If we had drafted Wilson, you would be complaining about taking a safe player- he's a 4th liner, nothing more. It's just inconsistency from you.

Your next few points are silly. Because SJ made the finals with Hertl on their team, and Chicago won with Teravainen and Maatta with the Pens, that makes them great picks? C'mon. Those guys aren't star players, and none of them offer far more value than Ceci. Ottawa was 1 goal away from making it to the finals with Ceci as their # 2 minute man. But because Kunitz scored a double OT flubbed shot goal, that means that Ceci is a worse pick than those other guys? No. Pens fans constantly complain about Maatta who has seen his share of struggles. Hertl has been inconsistent and injury proned, and in that Cup run was just their 9th leading scorer, and Teravainen didn't become the type of player Chicago had anticipated and they ended up trading him away. As for Vasilevsky, he still has to prove himself in this league as a go-to #1. I believe he has what it takes, but taking a goalie in the 1st round isn't some genius move as you make it sound. Campbell, Chet Pickard, McCollum, and Visentin are just a few of the more recent 1st round goalie busts.

I suggest giving Bowers a chance. He has yet to even start his college career. White was considered a safe pick and is now an exciting, top end prospect. Just a year ago, we took the opposite of a safe pick in Logan Brown. I think the Lazar pick and subsequent struggles have left this fan base scared [mixed in with the fact that this fan base has an inferiority complex sitting between Montreal and Toronto, and generally chooses to be negative]. Zib wasn't a safe pick, nor was Chabot, or Karlsson. 

BOONIE.... Obviously you didn't read the whole argument that led up to that. Nowhere did I say that Wilson was a better player than Ceci. In fact quite the contrary. My point in using Wilson was that Wilson became exactly what he was supposed to be. Washington was able to draft him to be a 3rd or 4th line player because they did such a great job drafting and developing their top end guys....See Kuznetsov, Burakovsky, Backstrom, OV, Johansson, etc, good thing McPhee was an idiot and traded away Filip Forsberg away for nothing because then the Caps would really be rolling.... Ottawa drafted Ceci to be a puck moving defenseman, something he absolutely doesn't resemble at all. The same could be said for players like Puempel, Noesen, Zibanejad, Ceci, etc. Ceci is a top 4 defenseman here, on most teams a top 4 he is not and many believe he's a bottom pairing defenseman playing above where he should be even here. But none of them turned out to be front end players.

I never said we had to draft a goalie in the first round, but I expect them to take a goalie if they are the best player available at our s;lot regardless of position because Ottawa hasn't drafted well enough like a team say Washington or Winnipeg.... to say we can pick a better talent later because we're so good here we can pick just about anybody and make it work. We have not done well in the 1st round over the past few years, Puempel, Noesen, Lazar, etc have not turned out at all. 

Hertl, Maata, Teravainen.... were later first round picks. They weren't shoe-ins. Neither was Logan Couture, either and look at how they panned out? Besides Erik Karlsson give me an impact player we have drafted in the 1st round outside of 10th overall? Definitely didn't come from this regime. 

BOONIE.... There is a flip side to that coin.... No not making the Finals doesn't make Ceci a less attractive pick, but again it wasn't his fault we were within one goal either, in fact his stats were horrendous, and no matter how good Ceci played we were an easy out of not for Karlsson.... which means the rest of the defense wasn't very good because our advanced stats say every other defenseman on the ice was in their own zone more than the other team's end minus when Karlsson was on the ice. That says Ceci wasn't very good....

Lastly, Zibanejad was a safe pick, and I'm not faulting everything on the draft selections I'm also attributing a lot to development. Chicago traded Teravainen away because they had to include something decent in order to rid themselves of Bickell's contract. It was the ONLY reason they moved Teravainen. Something we're going to have to do when it comes down to ridding ourselves of one of Phaneuf or Ryan, the difference being, the Hawks pump out prospects like Byfuglien, Saad, Shaw, Hjalmarsson, Keith.... and win cups. Teravainen as a dump still landed more for the Hawks than what we got for Matt Puempel who we lost on waivers because he just didn't develop. You need to take your rose-coloured glasses off Boonie because I donb't believe you know much about hockey outside of what you read about the Ottawa team in the Ottawa paper.

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I fall somewhere in between both of you on this topic. I agree with boonie that the sens have taken some risks in the first round. brown being the biggest and his development so far 100% played a factor in the safer Bowers pick. 

zibanejad was also a risky pick most mock drafts had him going later. 

where I don't agree with you Riddick is that you are saying other teams have drafted so much better than the sens have. because you have to rule out teams like Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh and now Edmonton(moving forward) because having tanked to get elite talent changes everything when it comes to approaching a draft 

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Riddick, I am not clear on your assessment of Ceci and advanced stats. 

Cody Ceci in my opinion will be a top 4 in most teams including cup winning Pittsburgh team. Penguins had a skeleton D in the last two post seasons (minus star Letang). They would have loved to have Ceci than any of the guys in their team roster. In Chicago, Calgary, Columbus and to name a few Ceci mind it hard to crack the line up as top 4. Even Chicago will like to have Ceci with current D roster because they were forced to move Hjarmalsson due to overpaid star talent (minus Keith). 

I am not a big fan of advanced stats. TOI matters more than which end of the ice. If we are killing penalties or trying to control the big guns, most of our Ds are going to be held in our own zone. Karlsson was the same in the past, but 2016/17 season has been his best year so far. I even rated him over Duncan Keith. 

Hertl, Maata and Teravainen are not the same level as Ceci.

Teravainen was my pick for a while when he had Hossa and Toews made him look top 6. 

Maata will not crack into our top 4 based on last year roster. I am not a big fan of show off Hertl. He is one big hit away from total wreck.

 

I have said this before. Cody Ceci has been assigned a task under Boucher. He scored 10 goals under Cameron. He is also playing beside slower Dion. We can't simply expect him to be lights out when given few shifts with Karlsson or Methot. I think Cody Ceci will develop into a stud with more seasons under his belt. There are many fans in chirp site write him off, but give free passes to their favourite player(s).  

 

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23SENS....  The reason Bowers was a safe pick was because this was a weak draft, we only picked 4 times, and our 1st pick was right near the end of the 1st round. Going safe with Bowers I understand completely because if anything it's the only pick we were going to get where we might have a shot at landing a player that can play for us. Anything outside the first round in this draft is less likely than in most other drafts, the pool of talent wasn't the greatest in this draft. Not to say some very good players will be unearthed in the later rounds, but there were not very many players that would entail that enthusiasm. 

23SENS.... Chicago only picked in the top 5, 3 out of 4 years.... wouldn't say that was tanking. Yes they bottomed out but that's what they are supposed to do when you stink as bad as they did. This past cup the Penguins won you can't pit that on the Penguins tanking 11 years ago. Ottawa had it's chance to build a dynasty.... remember these selections?

(Yashin)  2nd overall (1992)

Daigle (1st overall (1993)

Bonk (3rd overall (1994)

Berard ( 1st overall 1995)

Phillips (1st overall 1996)

Those are 5 players picked in the top 3 selections 5 years in a row. We had our chance, we just didn't win. When we purged Fisher, Vermette, Redden, Kelly...etc we should've rebuilt the right way. We didn't, and hence our problem. Edmonton I agree don't deserve to win anything and I hope they don't for at least 20 years. We shouldn't have had to tank for another 5 years, but we should've tanked for a couple of years in order to solidify a few top end building blocks. When we did miss the playoffs, and picked inside the top 10 we picked players like Brian Lee instead of Anze Kopitar. We didn't develop Jared Cowen properly, Curtis Lazar, Matt Puempel, Noesen, and to an extent Ceci have not panned out. Not all because we drafted poorly but combined with not developing our prospects properly. Karlsson has been the only 1st round homerun in more than 15 years. Not including Spezza because he was a traded for 2nd overall pick. But will include Tim Gleason from the same draft... Lastly, we have not gotten enough for the talent we have purged. Look at what Yzerman got for Drouin? He landed a franchise-caliber prospect for a player that held out, had one solid year, who everyone knew they were going to be unable to re-sign? They got more for Drouin than we got combined for both Jason Spezza, Dany Heatley, and Daniel Alfredsson. Simply we let too much talent go and got nothing for it, and our drafting in the rounds where MOST teams find their elite talent we have not done well at all. Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St Louis, Anaheim, etc remain top end teams because they draft well later in the 1st round.... Perry, Getzlaf, Rakell, Fowler, Palmieri.... Kuznetsov, Forsberg, Burakovsky, Johansson, Carlson... The Pens struggled in the 1st rounds with I think maybe Maatta, and that's it, but also found Letang, Guentzel, Muzzin, Rust etc in the later rounds, and better utilized their assets to bring in pieces that allowed them to win such as Kessel. 

 

Luckan.... Ceci with his advanced stats CF% (% of time Ottawa controls puck with him on the ice) 41% so 59% of the time Ceci is on the ice the other team is controlling the puck.

CF%rel (on ice % 5 on 5 puck control) Ceci -10.7% which means the team controls the puck when he's on the ice an average of 10.7% of the time when he is on the ice....

Fenwick FF (shots towards opponent goal + opponent blocked shots 5 on 5.... 873 to 1042 shots + blocks against means when Ceci was on ice 5 on 5 the other team generated 169 more shots against us than when he is on the ice.... Those are brutal stats and those are just the even strength stats LUCKAN..... his offense was pitiful, his defense was not good enough that it kept other teams from firing on our net because he NEVER drove the play against other teams took advantage of us when he was on the ice especially 5 on 5. I give free passes to no one, not even Karlsson. Phaneuf and Ceci are the reasons we struggle. I agree he doesn't play with Karlsson, but our issue is that the only defenseman we have that teams can't take advantage of is Karlsson. Bercause Phaneuf and Ceci struggle so much we are forced to play defense more than most teams. Hence why Chabot is so important and why Ceci can't be re-signed. You can't commit $11.5-13M in a defense pairing that spends the majority of their ice time in their own zone. You want your 2nd pairing to at least be hovering around 50-50% at least in terms of zone time if you really want to win. This is why Chabot is so important because he is a guy with enough talent both on defense and offense to push the other team backwards. Ceci no matter who he has been pairied with has done that, not in any year of his career has he been a player that pushes the other team backwards. When Ceci is on the ice for the Ottawa Senators it means Ottawa's goaltender is being peppered with shots. That is what Corsi and Fenwick explain with their stats and those stats don't lie.  

 

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when Pittsburgh tanks and gets two generational talents and convinces them to take team friendly deals their entire careers it absolutely can be used. 

I'm not concerned about those early sens drafts. right now they have been fine. plus it is more on the owner not allowing the team to tank. 

The fact the sens are able to be competitive every year is pretty amazing when you really break it down 

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How do you determine competitive? a team that's always good enough to maybe slip into one of the bottom couple of slots every year? Is that a team that people should be shelling out for? I don't think for a second Melnyk instructed anyone to forgo a rebuild. Had he not there's no way Fisher, Vermette, Kelly etc get sent packing when they did. The fans embraced a possible rebuild but both ownership and management believed they could compete and rebuild at the same time.... thinking they are smart enough to buck the trend like they are true innovators of the sport that they knew what the rest of the hockey world didn't.... All that got exposed was that they were wrong like everyone else who has tried it.

In all the years we were so called competitive never once were we true threats to win the cup. Malkin is not a generational talent, albeit a very good talent. Not consistent enough to be a generational talent. But point taken, and Pittsburgh did it the right way. The Edmonton way is just poor management, finding players like Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Staal, & Whitney early in the draft and developing them properly..... and finding players like Letang, Guentzel, Goligoski, & Brian Rust in rounds past the 1st round is how you win cups. Drafting players like Cowen, Lee, Lazar, Puempel, & Noesen are why we are struggling to find offensive depth. I agree it has gotten better recently no arguments there but it's now that we are suffering the effects of poor 1st round drafting. The proof is in the pudding.... Stone and Hoffman are our best homegrown talents up front, and our only 2 players drafted and developed that play in our top 6. We're a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 3 of the last 5 years. That's a problem. If we want to become anything more than a perennial fringe playoff team we have to start hitting and hitting big at least once in a while with our 1st rounders while continuing to hit in the later rounds. That's how teams like Pittsburgh, Tampa, St Louis, Washington etc always remain relevant. That's the goal, and right now the draft + development blueprint has to be fixed per say.

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On 7/27/2017 at 10:30 PM, 23sens23 said:

when Pittsburgh tanks and gets two generational talents and convinces them to take team friendly deals their entire careers it absolutely can be used. 

I'm not concerned about those early sens drafts. right now they have been fine. plus it is more on the owner not allowing the team to tank. 

The fact the sens are able to be competitive every year is pretty amazing when you really break it down 

Fully Agree with you. We should be happy with Sens having above average regular seasons. Sens were on a long stretch of making post seasons (I guess 11 in a row), which shows we had more than decent teams. There were few bad games, which cost us from heading into Stanley Cup finals. We couldn't beat the Laughs in 4 occasions (3 times against Cujo and 1 Belfour); could have beaten the Devils if not for bad bounce and Friesen getting a lucky bounce. We had solid forwards and defense but Lalime couldn't steal most important games. 

 

Riddick, good post, but my argument on Ceci was the same reason you were explaining. IMO, there were three primary reasons he was weak last season.

1) Coaching changes: under McClean and Cameron he was playing 2nd fiddle to Karlsson. There was a huge change to his development, which is why I mentioned advanced stats will only give negative picture. It is like I have been trained to play as wing forward (in rugby) and all of sudden asked me to play as a forward. My stats will get hammered.

2) Dion Phaneuf: Don't take me wrong he is a good D man, but he is the slowest among our d crop. As a result, Ceci was dragged too in his offensive drive. I think it is Boucher who decided to keep them together and go after top lines. I agree with you only Karlsson is the threat  from our end, but I will not write Wideman or Ceci or even Claesson off yet.

3) Finally, under Cameron's final year he scored 26 points with +9 and 10 goals. If you can check his advanced stats which will paint a positive picture and also earned him a good contract. Lets see how he pans out in 2017/18 season. Him falling apart in the 1st year of his new contract only helped us to ink him at a reasonable after 2017/18 season. 

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎29 at 1:41 PM, luckan20 said:

Fully Agree with you. We should be happy with Sens having above average regular seasons. Sens were on a long stretch of making post seasons (I guess 11 in a row), which shows we had more than decent teams. There were few bad games, which cost us from heading into Stanley Cup finals. We couldn't beat the Laughs in 4 occasions (3 times against Cujo and 1 Belfour); could have beaten the Devils if not for bad bounce and Friesen getting a lucky bounce. We had solid forwards and defense but Lalime couldn't steal most important games. 

 

Riddick, good post, but my argument on Ceci was the same reason you were explaining. IMO, there were three primary reasons he was weak last season.

1) Coaching changes: under McClean and Cameron he was playing 2nd fiddle to Karlsson. There was a huge change to his development, which is why I mentioned advanced stats will only give negative picture. It is like I have been trained to play as wing forward (in rugby) and all of sudden asked me to play as a forward. My stats will get hammered.

2) Dion Phaneuf: Don't take me wrong he is a good D man, but he is the slowest among our d crop. As a result, Ceci was dragged too in his offensive drive. I think it is Boucher who decided to keep them together and go after top lines. I agree with you only Karlsson is the threat  from our end, but I will not write Wideman or Ceci or even Claesson off yet.

3) Finally, under Cameron's final year he scored 26 points with +9 and 10 goals. If you can check his advanced stats which will paint a positive picture and also earned him a good contract. Lets see how he pans out in 2017/18 season. Him falling apart in the 1st year of his new contract only helped us to ink him at a reasonable after 2017/18 season. 

LUCKAN.... That's my point, he's not being deployed as the player he was meant to be which is why I said he's in the process of being ruined. You see this is why I'm not constituting Ceci as a bust because that would imply that Ceci didn't develop. He was developing but trying to force him to become something he isn't, is not good asset management. I agree having Phaneuf as a partner doesn't help, but Ceci has not done many good things on the ice with or without Phaneuf. I'm a huge Ceci fan, most people know that on here, but the writing is on the wall. His next contract poses a very large problem for us cap-wise unless again we can rid ourselves of Phaneuf, and to do that will definitely cost us. He's earned his top 4 pay raise because he does play the minutes. But outside of the minutes he plays he does not deserve the pay hike he's going to get. When he is on the ice we spend too much time in our zone, he doesn't move the puck quickly or accurately he's behind in his development in that regard and we don't have the cap space to overpay for him just to keep him for the sake of keeping him. 

Chabot will become the team's 2nd defenseman of that there is no debate. He's above and away the most talented defenseman we have had in the system since drafting Karlsson. He should become a 50-60 point defenseman who plays both PK & PP and will be a huge weapon when Karlsson isn't on the ice. He'll also be a huge piece of the 2nd PP unit something we haven't had in years. Ceci is not the mentoring type, and losing Methot we've lost what could've been the only other stabilizing influence other than maybe Phaneuf, so there's a role there that Phaneuf is the most likely to secure because of how important Chabot is to the franchise moving forward. This really squeezes Ceci's role on the team. You don't want to pair Ceci with Chabot because Ceci almost guarantees Chabot will be playing in his own zone and that's not what the team wants. So again you can't justify possibly paying Ceci $4.5M to play on the bottom pairing. It's not quite as bad as paying Phaneuf $7M to play there, but keeping Ceci in the near future means you're going to have to do one or the other. The move that makes the most sense is to move Ceci for a top end forward. I'm thinking it hasn't happened yet because teams don't see Ceci worthy of sending a top 6 forward in return.

 

 

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